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  1. #31
    Join Date
    April 2009
    Posts
    7
    I think that the TS2 user verification and registration system was perfect. However, I do like the current idea of the permission system now, but it needs to be reworked to a simpler interface. As was previously stated here, a simple check/uncheck system and have a type of immunity system, whether it be global immunity or command-specific. Flexibility is the key, but usuability is also the other half.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    December 2004
    Location
    RF
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeK View Post
    I can't see any business using TS3 with the permissions system the way it is designed right now. Every single business IT system I've seen controls authentication via user IDs and passwords, and if you want to introduce a system it needs to plug into existing authentication mechanisms.

    Using whatever nickname you want, no userID/passwords and passing around tokens manually simply will not fly in a business environment.

    Cheers!

    Luke
    You seriously wrong. Strong encryption clients use the same certificate system as TS3. The only difference is that certificates usually protected with password, but it is purely client option.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    June 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by T.S. Excreta View Post
    It's not confusing.
    That's like going to the C++ standards people and saying; "C++ needs to be more like VB." It's a ridiculous idea at best when all you have to do is learn a new syntax.
    All you have to do if you are a programmer is learn a new syntax, granted.
    But if I want to use an application coded in C++ I don't expect to need to know how the language used to code it works, just to use the application.
    You seem to be approaching this from the perspective of a professional software tester being handed a new application to get to grips with, rather than from the perspective of your average gamer or server admin.

    You also don't need to patronise people either. Of course most people need someone to "hold their hands" when introduced to new software, just to get them through the initially steep learning curve of unfamiliar software.
    That is natural and indeed the complaint here is that the learning curve from TS3 compared to TS2 is very steep (for non-professionals) and that the documentation alone is insufficient to provide the hand-holding required.

    You yourself admitted that for you to work out exactly what the permissions did and what worked (and didn't) you had to spend an hour using a test server and willing subjects experimenting with the different permissions. If that is true for you (as presumably a more experienced software user than the average person on these forums), then that does rather prove the point that documentation is lacking and unclear.

    In my case it took myself and another server admin a total of about 3 hours between us of reading through the documents, studying what permissions existed in the different teirs and groups and trying to figure out what levels of access were needed to get the result we wanted for each member, before setting up new groups based upon existing ones, tweaking the individual permissions and then testing with users to see if they could do what they were supposed to be able to.
    It may not seem like a long time, but for something as simple as setting up voice comms software it is excessive.

    The biggest challenge is looking at the long list of permissions and the different power levels and trying to figure out what to use to get the desired result. This is what makes the permissions system user unfriendly and this is what needs to be addressed.
    I know that giving someone an individual permission at level 50 means they can't perform an action on someone with the corresponding level of 75, but I don't know why the levels are set at 50, 25, 75 or -1 for particular groups, what they should be set at (recommendations for different groups) or what would happen if I set a value at (say) 42. And I shouldn't have to guess when trying to set up a server.

    I stand by my earlier point though. This thread (and several like it) are looking for constructive help in setting up teamspeak 3 servers. Simply repeating the sentiment that people who can't work it out for themselves shouldn't be running a teamspeak server is not helpful and if that is the best advice you can offer, please keep it to yourself.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Oke, first of all, I didn't expect to get so many replies here. But it seems that I am not the only one that was seriously confused by all the options.

    Now that I have been working with TS3 for some days (and yes, I've spend several hours trying to figure out what the best options for me were) and I think I have it running as I want it.

    Oke, the permission system, yes, if you take the time to learn the system, in the end you WILL get it working. But still I have some remarks. (and frankly, I rather spend my time on something else)

    1. I think it's kind of weird that if you look at the permissions of the channels, that you find also permissions that only users should have. E.g kick power?! Wtf? Why should a channel have kick power? Or needed kick power? Are you ever going to kick a channel?

    If you filter out all the permissions that should not be there, it will make the system already a LOT more user friendly.

    2. Why is there a password field in the client? TS3 doesnt use this password right? Then take it out! Please!

    3. The token system I can live with, but I find it too difficult to regain server admin rights if you happen to have lost it (e.g. by upgrading the client or server) and you happen to be the only server admin. Now you have to login using Putty or something similar... I've been in IT for many many years, but Putty? I have never used it, and frankly, I hate it. Why not stay with the webinterface that everybody is used to? I dont want to learn al those commands, or have to look in the documentation for every command that I have to issue to get my rights back.

    4. What about people using multiple clients to log in? Can't you work out a system that can recognize those users and give them their proper rights once they have been assigned to them?

    5. Why can't I get a proper list of all the clients ever connected to my server to check what rights they have been assigned?

    6. Why do I have to perform some trick to get FULL admin powers? I am server admin, I should be able to do everything I want, give me my power of 100!

    7. I get complaints that the sound is not as good as Skype. I know that Skype has other disadvantages, but I have difficulty getting those people to use TS3. The sound should be a lot better in TS3 if you compare it to TS2, but frankly, I don't dont hear to much of a difference (and no, I don't have a cheap ass headset). Maybe the lag is gone but I don't know how to test that.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    February 2005
    Location
    Roswell, GA
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by ANR Daemon View Post
    You seriously wrong. Strong encryption clients use the same certificate system as TS3. The only difference is that certificates usually protected with password, but it is purely client option.
    I'm not wrong. While there may be plenty of apps that use public/private keys, in almost all cases that's abstracted away from the user. And the user still has to provide some sort of authentication information on their own.

    With TS3, the private key gives me some assurances that the client is the same person as last time. Beyond that, I have no way of knowing who exactly they are, and I cannot plug them into the same authentication scheme that I have (which works perfectly well) and am using for our web site, our mail servers, and all of our other infrastructure.

    Why not??

    Luke

  6. #36
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    North Dakota, US
    Posts
    8
    It also took me a bit of playing around to figure out the new permissions system, and I am a software developer myself. Once everything clicked into place for me, it all seems pretty simple, but I can definitely see that getting it to click for the average user might take a bit better explanation than what is in the docs.

    @mvdstroom regarding your points:
    1. I agree completely. Some of the permissions don't seem to make much sense where they are at and I think it would be a bit more friendly if they were removed, or explained a lot better why they are there.

    2. You can set a password to connect to the server. If the server has a password, people can't connect as a guest unless they enter the server password. Think of it kind of like the old TS2 Anonymous user password.

    3 & 4. If you go to your Identity, you can import/export it to a .ini file. Back it up somewhere secure if you are worried about losing it. And if you want to use the same identity on multiple machines, you can import it to the other machines.

    5. I thought I saw a permission somewhere for getting the list of clients, but I don't see anything on the UI. Maybe it is hidden or restricted to a server query. Would be a nice to have in the UI if it is missing, though.

    6. For the most part, in the later betas a power of 75 has been sufficient for me. There was one beta I was testing that didn't allow you to set the server name/password/message unless you were a power of 100, but that requirement was reduced to 75 in the latest beta updates. I haven't found anything yet that I needed that required a power of 100.

    7. Can't comment on. We use Skype at work for communicating with remote offices, but I have cheap ass speakers at work so it isn't fair for me to compare it to TS3 with my headset at home.

    Overall I agree. Some permissions that don't make sense should either be removed or explained better, and there should be better documentation. I expect the documentation will most likely be fleshed out and improved upon as the beta matures.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by deiussum View Post
    2. You can set a password to connect to the server. If the server has a password, people can't connect as a guest unless they enter the server password. Think of it kind of like the old TS2 Anonymous user password.

    3 & 4. If you go to your Identity, you can import/export it to a .ini file. Back it up somewhere secure if you are worried about losing it. And if you want to use the same identity on multiple machines, you can import it to the other machines.

    5. I thought I saw a permission somewhere for getting the list of clients, but I don't see anything on the UI. Maybe it is hidden or restricted to a server query. Would be a nice to have in the UI if it is missing, though.

    6. For the most part, in the later betas a power of 75 has been sufficient for me. There was one beta I was testing that didn't allow you to set the server name/password/message unless you were a power of 100, but that requirement was reduced to 75 in the latest beta updates. I haven't found anything yet that I needed that required a power of 100.
    2. Ah, I see. Well I don't think it's obvious that it's the server password you are filling in there. But ok, makes sense

    3&4. But I would still like to have the web interface back

    5. The permission is there, yes. But you cannot get the entire list of the clients in your client when logged in as server admin

    6. Sufficient or not, admin should have power 100.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeK View Post
    I'm not wrong. While there may be plenty of apps that use public/private keys, in almost all cases that's abstracted away from the user. And the user still has to provide some sort of authentication information on their own.

    With TS3, the private key gives me some assurances that the client is the same person as last time. Beyond that, I have no way of knowing who exactly they are, and I cannot plug them into the same authentication scheme that I have (which works perfectly well) and am using for our web site, our mail servers, and all of our other infrastructure.

    Why not??

    Luke
    Thats also my problem. The history of usernames should be stored somewhere. What if somebody decides to log onto my server with a different username everytime. Because of the unique ID he will get the proper rights, but on a busy server, it's difficult to keep track of who is who.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by mvdstroom View Post
    6. Sufficient or not, admin should have power 100.
    This is true, Superadmin should have admin privileges of 100. However; in this case I'm going to have to side with the TS development group and say that the 'trick' to getting 100 is preferred. This way, there is no way to accidentally assume that level of control.

    I realize that it's one of those 'your mileage may vary' situations, so it's all based upon user preferences.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    North Dakota, US
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by mvdstroom View Post
    6. Sufficient or not, admin should have power 100.
    I tend to think of it as power of 100 being more of a super admin. So a hosting company might reserve the 100 power to themselves for determining things like port, and give the admins renting a virtual server from them the 75 power for things like setting the name/password, server groups, channel permissions etc.

    It might make more sense for them to actually create a super admin group, then when you install the server the token they give you is to add you to the super admin group. The hosting company could then generate a token for the more restrictive admin group with the power of 75. That way if you install your own server, you get super admin access. If you purchase a server from a hosting company, you get basic admin access...

  11. #41
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by SingingHobo View Post
    This is true, Superadmin should have admin privileges of 100. However; in this case I'm going to have to side with the TS development group and say that the 'trick' to getting 100 is preferred. This way, there is no way to accidentally assume that level of control.

    I realize that it's one of those 'your mileage may vary' situations, so it's all based upon user preferences.
    I just don't understand the need for two types of serveradmin. Either make them into one, or make one superadmin account. Don't use the same name twice and give them different rights.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    North Dakota, US
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by mvdstroom View Post
    Thats also my problem. The history of usernames should be stored somewhere. What if somebody decides to log onto my server with a different username everytime. Because of the unique ID he will get the proper rights, but on a busy server, it's difficult to keep track of who is who.
    TS2 has a similar issue. You could assign someone a username/password to log in to the server, but there is a separate box for them to pick their display name so they can pick a different display name than their username if they want.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by deiussum View Post
    I tend to think of it as power of 100 being more of a super admin. So a hosting company might reserve the 100 power to themselves for determining things like port, and give the admins renting a virtual server from them the 75 power for things like setting the name/password, server groups, channel permissions etc.

    It might make more sense for them to actually create a super admin group, then when you install the server the token they give you is to add you to the super admin group. The hosting company could then generate a token for the more restrictive admin group with the power of 75. That way if you install your own server, you get super admin access. If you purchase a server from a hosting company, you get basic admin access...
    I agree

  14. #44
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by deiussum View Post
    TS2 has a similar issue. You could assign someone a username/password to log in to the server, but there is a separate box for them to pick their display name so they can pick a different display name than their username if they want.
    But then you could still see who they are by looking at their login name. That is easier to recognize as a unique ID.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    December 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by deiussum View Post
    I tend to think of it as power of 100 being more of a super admin. So a hosting company might reserve the 100 power to themselves for determining things like port, and give the admins renting a virtual server from them the 75 power for things like setting the name/password, server groups, channel permissions etc.

    It might make more sense for them to actually create a super admin group, then when you install the server the token they give you is to add you to the super admin group. The hosting company could then generate a token for the more restrictive admin group with the power of 75. That way if you install your own server, you get super admin access. If you purchase a server from a hosting company, you get basic admin access...
    At last, someone who speaks sense

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